Good god. I ranted. I admit it.
What follows is an email that just left my computer for my gaming group. God help me I ranted didn't I? Did I? Crap. It drives me to it sometimes...
I'm in for a short recon mission like the one you described, and I completely agree that I do NOT wanting you two going places alone without some backup within reasonable reach.
On this treasure business, I'm sort of confused as to why this is such an issue; be warned everyone, it's late and I'm probably going to launch into what may end up sounding like little more than a rant.
(My arguments end up being summarized in the last paragraph of this email, so you can if you'd like skip ahead to it).
I have begun perceiving that what I define as treasure, and what others define as treasure apparently differ quite a bit. This to me is somewhat unexpected actually, as most everyone has some exposure to roleplaying games as I so I thought we were on the same page here. I must not have the same book or something because this argument seemed a strange one to be having. I should start by defining for me what I think is treasure:
Coins, gems, art, jewelry, music, pretty clothes, deeds to buildings, and bright feathers from exotic birds are what I would call 'treasure'. Treasure is wealth. It tends to be shiny in some way, and it's what you retire on.
Weapons, armor, magic items, scrolls, potions, sunrods, fishing lines, wands, lockpicks, tents, and warm weather clothing are not 'treasure' to me. They are what I call 'equipment'. Equipment is what lets you do your job and stay alive to get more wealth.
Cashy money, i.e. gold, silver, artwork, gems and such are treasure. That this should be shared in equal parts is true and good for my mind. So any treasure we find should be split up as evenly as possible amongst the party. That's the best deal for a group with a cooperative spirit who have agreed to travel together, split the profits. 8 gold pieces in a pouch means we all get one gold piece and we've so far been doing that for the most part. We could maybe do better though.
Now I can understand how equipment can be seen as something entirely different as some, but I honestly don't think it should be. As a party it's in everybody's best interest that everyone else in the party is performing at their peak. I can't pick locks anymore than VOID can pick a melee with an orc and be around 2 rounds later to think it was a bad idea. I want the sorceres to be mobile artillery platforms behind me, with as much magical power and utility that we can possibly give them. I want the Rouges to get me through the doors without being hit with every trap in the place, and I want them sneak attacking everything I ever have to go toe to toe with, and I want them to be as loud as a tick fart when they do all this. I want the monk breaking things in half with his bare hands, jacked up with whatever help we can give him in preparation. And as far as myself and Radegunde are concerned, I'll go on a limb saying that everyone else in the party wants us between the enemy and themselves with the highest defenses, best weapons, and most surly attitudes attainable when it heats up.
That being said, equipment is equipment. If I find a scroll of magic missile, it's going to a magic user, and I don't really care which one as long as they'll use it. That should be between the two of them, and is a great way to roleplay and start specializing maybe. That whole teamwork and communication thing. I'm not going to hold onto it because I 'found it first' or I might be able to sell it for a profit. I'm not 4 anymore and my kindergarten teacher taught me to share. It's going to a mage because when shit hits the fan I want whatever is kicking my ribcage out through my back getting blasted in the face from the dude behind me that I'm trying to protect.
That being said, if I have no healing potions, and said mage still has 3, and we started with say an equal amount, I am fully going to expect that he pony up at least one, but probably two. I'd hope he'd offer it even. I mean, I did use up my first three getting my ribcage kicked out through my back protecting his butt, and if he wants me to keep doing that he's going to need me alive at the very least, and happy with him at best.
Weapons, same deal. If you find a short sword, I should probably be the one to talk to (thank you by the way everyone, Chip does keep me very well informed when I can't make it). That being said, if I pick up a +5 Vorpal Longsword of Regeneration through some mental lapse of Jim's judgment (not that it would ever, ever happen of course) the very next day it's going to Radegunde. Even if no one else saw me get it, and yes, I could use it to probably good effect, she's the Longsword weilder, and I need her A game when she's fighting next to me. She'd hopefully give me the magical light armor the same I'd giver her the magical suite of plate. If she's kicking arse, I'm staying alive and vice versa, and to me this is a good thing. Great thing even.
Anything more than one person could use (and isn't a clearly class specific item, such as a scroll or wand) should be placed between them. Both parties should put forth a case as to why they'd use it more effectively than the other (something like a belt of giant's strength for example, would have at least three immediate candidates that it would work for, the ranger, fighter, and monk) and then the rest of the party should decide in a civilized and democratic fashion who gets it. It's the rest of the parties butt on the line after all. This should allow both claimers to understand the desire of the other side to own said item and the rest of the party some insight as to who has the need or simply who would probably use it better. We have two rogues and two sorcerers so they're going to have to share items sometimes, and possibly swap tools on a regular basis. (in the case of the belt, all our arguments would probably be based around damage potential. My claim might center around the fact that I have two weapons to potentially add that damage bonus to not just one, and that my strength isn't my highest stat by far so it could use the boost. I'd actually however prefer to defer and give the belt to the monk however for this reason; his damage potential is what defines him. Fighter/Rangers can get magical weapons to improve this, he normally will have very limited options in this regard. Also, I sort of regard him like a cruise missile; a watch as he points himself in a direction and goes off to break things... or people missile. A monk's damage potential is down right silly sometimes, and he's got interesting tricks as well with his ki strikes. He's not supposed to be the one holding the line, and his AC is not the best so that's not a good idea anyways. Besides, that's my job (and Radegunde's). BUT! When we do point and fire said missile I want whatever he runs into to be gone before he himself succumbs. Besides, he's got two weapons as I do, and he hits using strength as well. The monk should get it even though I would dearly, dearly love it on Kalendios. But the monk would be a wrecking ball.)
This is about survival people. If we don't help each other maximize our individual and unique abilities, Jim should kill us off to get it over with.
Now, if it's something like a gnome hooked hammer, and no one can use it, or would for that matter, the finder still should not keep it I say. This equipment should then be classified as treasure and separated out for the common pool. At first opportunity it's sold, the profits split, and voila, cashy money again. If it's someone no one wants, or has no clearly identifiable default owner (healing scrolls go to Kaylear, and Kale will hurt people who say otherwise for being silly) but someone feels they can use it to advantage, and they explain that advantage, then they should get it as equipment. The Mace was a good example of this in action. No one uses a mace in our party, but Caedan (spelling?) thought, hey, that might make me a bit more useful once I run out of spells. He spoke up, the party agreed and poof! He's actually hit something in melee after his spells ran out. Now I'm sure he'd prefer a staff of the magi, and I'd prefer cash to him risking his neck, but hey. We get what we get and we need to work with it. As a party, we should all come to terms with this. If we can, as a group decide that we're going to do our best to make sure that everyone else in the party has the best that we can give them to succeed we're going to be successful. If we start hording, being jealous about things, and distrustful of others it's going to get us killed. If you give up an item now, it means something down the road will be heading your way. If you don't, you might need help in a tight spot and find it not forth coming because you screwed that character out of something useful. Also, this is a roleplaying game. Characters here have their own motives and agendas, and party or not, you keep burning someone they could probably wind up trying to kill you. Or succeeding. Remember, Jim's actually let Radegunde roll dice to try and punch Kale. Now, she missed, but had it connected there would have been an inter- PC fight with a DM presiding that would allow it and has no compunctions about letting characters die (RIP Garrett).
If you find a wand, and your character sheet is blank in the spells section, you do not have rights to it. You do not get to keep it for any reason. Either for profit, spite, jealousy, or to hold out to trade up for a different item. It's going to a sorcerer. If you find masterwork lockpicks, it's going to Kara and Yiqinne. <-- that's a period, the sentence ended. If I find boots of dwarvenkind and I'm not an dwarf, guess who shouldn't keep them? That's right, me. Unless the dwarf says nah, take 'em, and the rest of the group is cool with that, it's going to the dwarf. Same for any racial specific item in my book. Magical items, weapons, armor, and tools should not be considered wealth to be bargained with or personal property. This is stuff we're going to need to get out of this place alive. Never, EVER, under ANY circumstances forget that access to this stuff was placed here by the very mind that put the bad guys in the same place. If it's here, it's probably NOT so much a coincidence.
Finders keepers is silly, no one wants that it sounds like anyways, plus the rouges are going to spot everything first for the most part. It is after all their job to do just that, and they are fairly good at their jobs. This method would mean anyone guarding the rear, or even in the middle of our marching order would pretty much get the scraps, and be screwed. Again, I get the sense that you know that already so moving on. Rolling for 'treasure initiative' seems to be a step in the right direction but doesn't work as an idea for me either however for a few immediate reasons. One, I can't roll (neither can Kara so she might back me there in the long run, even though Ryan proposed it). Two, Kale will end up killing someone if people keep taking the most expensive items first to try and make profits instead of taking useful things or leaving useful things for others. Three, I can't see a fair way at all to do this that isn't going to make someone feel cheated in some way right now. Do we add our initiative modifiers to this roll (the first row folks and the rouges have the edge again...)? Are we really going to place the tools of survival in this world into a system that amounts to what looks like a draft pick and hope to get lucky? In modern war, if someone's going to assault a room, you give him your weapon if his is broken, your grenades if he's running low, and you made sure before you got there that he/she had the best armor/protection you could find. Why aren't we doing the same thing as a matter of course? We're for all intents and purposes a combined arms combat unit, and should work to act like it. Caedan giving Kale mage armor got Kale and the rest of the six that went into that Orc fight through it alive. There were a LOT of 18, 19, 20, and 21to hit rolls that missed me and didn't do damage that would have without it. Kale's hard to hit, but that's it. He's not a tank like Radegunde, and he'll go down a lot faster than she will, and would have if not for the +4 the spell gave to my armor class. The trade off was autodamage from a magic missile, but I did a lot more by staying alive than 1d4+1 damage would have. That's a small thing but it works. This discussion of pooling resources has been awesome to read, because it's what I think we're going to have to do on a larger scale still.
Ryan was correct in the putting the needs of the group above the individual as the imperative. I just don't agree with his assertion that monetary compensation be made for items that trade hands as a matter of usefulness to the receiver. This smacks of finders keepers to me. The compensation should be the warm spot in your heart and the knowledge that your buddy has another tool they need to succeed and keep you alive. Okay so that's corny, but it's the way I'm seeing this. I guess my basic point is, and if I had my way in this world it would be as follows; If you can't use the equipment, or if you're not going to use the equipment, cough it up to the group to decide what to do with it. Sorry for the rant, I just think the discussion about treasure is approaching the path of the complicated, circular, and unnecessary. Again though, I think I define treasure a bit differently and if someone has a good idea that everyone can agree is fair, I'll be for it.
posted by Jaecyn @ 2:13 AM
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